NICOLLE WALLACE (HOST): So, Angelo, you have me fixated on this measure of narrative dominance. And it feels that the dynamic that Von talked about yesterday and Tyler’s describing goes a long way toward aiding Trump in securing news cycle after news cycle of narrative dominance until this story. And I think what makes this story so interesting is the gigabytes that the victims are writing about in a letter today to the judge are the same gigabytes that Kash Patel and Dan Bongino and Joe Rogan have been on the airwaves, the podcast airwaves talking about for years now. Just talk about how this story is different and sort of eludes their control measures.
ANGELO CARUSONE (GUEST): Yeah, and I think that what you — that part of that distinction, even what you just said there when you pointed out the fact that it’s podcasters because one of the crucial things that separates this from, say, other instances and why Trump’s sort of control over the narrative is kind of unspun is because and it sort of gets into something Tyler mentioned before, Trump watches TV. He’s not really tapped into this larger ecosystem. So, even though he’s been able to demonstrate real downstream effect over it and control it essentially by just, by having, you know, sort of this gravitational force, this is one instance where his lack of connection to what’s happening in the space is leading him to do things that are actually furthering his effort to lose control. He’s losing more and more control, because even just picking this, let’s point out here, he’s using an old standby, which was this Russia conspiracy theory. The podcasters don’t care about that. They recently joined right-wing media.
They’re not really fixated on this. It’s actually really old news for them. And to the extent they ever cared, it’s done. I mean, this is something that was really part of Fox News and the Fox ecosystem and talk radio for so long, sort of the traditional thing that you’d expect Trump to consume. That is what he’s tapping into. But by doing that, what he’s effectively doing is one, he’s picking a story that has almost no traction in the very podcast ecosystem that has helped fuel not just Trump’s ascent during the campaign, but has helped him reinforce his narrative dominance because they have been echoing the story that had been coming out of right-wing media. So, what he’s actually done here is he has one, tapped something that’s not interesting to them. So, they’re not going to pick it up.
Yeah, sure, Fox News is going to talk about it. They’re happily going to talk about this. This is the greatest thing that’s ever happened to Sean Hannity. He gets to break open the Russiagate conspiracy all over again. I mean, he has come out of the woodwork. I mean, it’s hard to overstate how irrelevant and disconnected from the story Sean Hannity has been. And now, you know, he bursts in because this is it. This is his moment.
WALLACE: He’s got all these old graphics of the Mueller investigation. It’s such a smart point, Angelo. I mean, you’re so right. And if you listen, I mean, this is when I realized how central the Epstein stories are to Trump’s support in the MAGA-adjacent manosphere, and they’re not MAGA. And I’m not talking about the Megyn Kellys and the Ben Shapiros and the Andy Kirks, Charlie Kirks, whoever. Those are MAGA spokespeople who will be interchangeable with Karoline Leavitt and the White House propagandists. I’m talking about the people who really swayed the folks that don’t vote all the time, Joe Rogan’s audience, and then Joe Rogan’s community of comedians. Shane Gillis, who hosted the ESPY’s and made a joke about the Epstein files. He said, “I had an Epstein joke, but it must have been deleted.” I mean, this influence on culture aiding Donald Trump is to me still this untold political story. And to lose that, I think has seismic political impact on the MAGA movement.
CARUSONE: It does because one of the effects, you know, I get this question sometimes in my friends look, so what? Right? I mean, so they’re mad about Epstein. So what? What does that matter? And again, I don’t want to overstate it, but there is one immediate effect, and it points to the politics you’re talking about is that they’re not just criticizing Trump and the way that he’s dealing with this Epstein stuff. It’s the second you sort of — and they’re not just not echoing what’s happening in the right-wing media. Those are two bad things alone. But the third thing is that it’s also created some space where now their own individual gripes are starting to come out. They’re criticizing him more on immigration, over the economy or other policies. And that’s where you go from them not toeing the line anymore to softening the ground for a political change, a disaffected of the very audience that he recently captivated. That to me is the political so-what is that they’re criticizing him more.
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